Joel Gregory can only help...

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Joel Gregory can only help...

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:51 pm

...moderates, if only because he will present a model of an outstanding preacher, something missing from mods, or so it seems to this humble mod observer. I admire him for (a) his bootstrap period, selling cemetery lots door to door post DallasFBC [side note: the father of a friend died recently. The most Christian thing that could have been said about this good man, was that after a business failure in his middle years, he took up a paper route to pay bills rather than to declare bankruptcy] (b) his ability to preach, and (c) his skill in writing. That he is now divorced twice, a biographical note openly reported in his appointment at Baylor, is apparently not a problem. It would likely be a problem with many BGCT churches.
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Re: Joel Gregory can only help...

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:41 pm

William wrote:Jole Gregory can only help...moderates, if only because he will present a model of an outstanding preacher, something missing from mods, or so it seems to this humble mod observer. I admire him for (a) his bootstrap period, selling cemetery lots door to door post DallasFBC [side note: the father of a friend died recently. The most Christian thing that could have been said about this good man, was that after a business failure in his middle years, he took up a paper route to pay bills rather than to declare bankruptcy] (b) his ability to preach, and (c) his skill in writing. That he is now divorced twice, a biographical note openly reported in his appointment at Baylor, is apparently not a problem. It would likely be a problem with many BGCT churches.


Ed: I am Glad to see J.G. accepting a years contract at Baylor but William you are far off base with you comment about outstanding preaching being missing among modrates. I would ask how many Modeates you have heard preach. I will put up Molly Marshal beside Jole Gregory any time. And I still go with Wayne Ward as one of my all time favorites. For that matter Dan Vestal does not have to back up to accept his pay for any Preaching engagemet. But then it is easy to be critical of what you do not know.

And what does Gregory's two divorces have to do with his homiletical skill.
I was not aware of his second divorice untill the item ML linked reporting his appointment at Baylor. May I asume you read his account of the first in his book Too Great a Temptation. In the begining Baylor did well under the leadership of a divorced man, B.H. Carroll. So I doubt that having a twice divoriced homoletics professor will shake the foundations of that instituon very deeply.
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Re: Joel Gregory can only help...

Postby Norm » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:09 am

William: ... That he is now divorced ....

And Charles Stanley?
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Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:51 am

Maybe I haven't heard the right moderates preach. Gregory is now the leading preacher among moderates, best I can see.
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Postby mlovell » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:22 am

What standard do you use to judge "leading preacher," Wm -- among moderates or among any group?
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Postby Norm » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:35 am

William: Maybe I haven't heard the right moderates preach ....

Although your experience is as valid as that of any other, we are now to believe it is limited, too?
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William and

Postby fox » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:30 pm

Thread Drift
ATTN JEP:!!!!

Mlovell already a thread started on Gregory going to Baylor.
Why is my firend William allowed to get away with this egregious slap in the face of Mlovell\s thread and when are you gonna let me know where you put my post that you found so alien thread????? :x :x
INFORMED GADFLY

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Re: William and

Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:16 pm

fox wrote:Thread Drift
ATTN JEP:!!!!

Mlovell already a thread started on Gregory going to Baylor.
Why is my firend William allowed to get away with this egregious slap in the face of Mlovell\s thread and when are you gonna let me know where you put my post that you found so alien thread????? :x :x


Alien thread abduction...I'm totally against it.
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Postby wilkey » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:28 pm

We are so desperate in Texas we will take all the repentant fundamentalists even if they are twice divorced. I even saw Dr. Brister, whose son is head of OBU and led the charge to get the WMU in line in the SBC, at the CBF meeting.
Powell, Gregory and Reynolds were at the center of the conflict over Baylor's trustee issue. I still have the tape where Joel is bashing Baylor for the trustee thing. He preached this sermon at FBC Dallas and sent it out all over the state. I doubt he will preach the same sermon in chapel at Truett. :angel:
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Postby gil_TX » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:31 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:When Gregory went to FBC Dallas I was shocked. I had been given the impression that he was a moderate. So, it looked to me like he was selling out his principles to get the Dallas pulpit.

I'm sorry he crashed a burned at Dallas but, given that WA was still there, I'm surprised.

I've not read Gregory's book about his experiences. Anyone have a take on the book?


No key player looks good in the book, including Gregory.

As brilliant as JG is, he should have seen the hand writing on the wall before moving to Dallas.
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Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:08 pm

wilkey wrote:We are so desperate in Texas we will take all the repentant fundamentalists even if they are twice divorced. I even saw Dr. Brister, whose son is head of OBU and led the charge to get the WMU in line in the SBC, at the CBF meeting.
Powell, Gregory and Reynolds were at the center of the conflict over Baylor's trustee issue. I still have the tape where Joel is bashing Baylor for the trustee thing. He preached this sermon at FBC Dallas and sent it out all over the state. I doubt he will preach the same sermon in chapel at Truett. :angel:


ED" Don, you make A few comments here that I have no reference to understand , would you elaborate?

A) "We are so desperate in texas..." Who is included in "We" ? Why the Desperation?

B) I even saw Dr. Brister, whose son is head of OBU and led the charge to get the WMU in line in the SBC, at the CBF meeting.
Ed: Dr. Brister sr, led what charge to get WMU in line with what in the SBC at what CBF meeting, when?

C) You say "Powell, Gregory and Reynolds were at the center of the conflict over Baylor's trustee issue".

Ed: What of it?

you add "I still have the tape where Joel is bashing Baylor for the trustee thing."

I ask What Trustee "thing" and do you mean trustee or trutees or possiably Regents?

D) "He preached this sermon at FBC Dallas and sent it out all over the state. I doubt he will preach the same sermon in chapel at Truett. :angel:"

:Angel: ?
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Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:57 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
gil_TX wrote:As brilliant as JG is, he should have seen the hand writing on the wall before moving to Dallas.


Tim B
Maybe so but, I don't pretend to understand how a church like FBC Dallas can go from a Pastor like Truett to Criswell. They were so very different men theologically etc. that it amazes me such a transition could happen in a congregation .


Ed: Tim I think you have a part of it but also I think one would have to take a look at the earlier and latter Crisswell. The questions I see it was who transformed who? Did Crisswell transform the congregation or did Crisswell conform to expectations of a changing congregation.
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Postby gil_TX » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:39 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
gil_TX wrote:As brilliant as JG is, he should have seen the hand writing on the wall before moving to Dallas.


Maybe so but, I don't pretend to understand how a church like FBC Dallas can go from a Pastor like Truett to Criswell. They were so very different men theologically etc. that it amazes me such a transition could happen in a congregation .


I don’t even attempt to understand things like this and other things much deeper (like the motives of those in the SBC controversy). It causes too much headache to try and figure it out. I have found peace in placing my trust in God when I don’t understand and even when I am being hurt by others. I believe God is sovereign, He still reigns and I can walk through whatever comes my way with Him leading me.

I saw a book at LifeWay the other day with the title: He’s God and We’re Not. I don’t remember who wrote it but the title bundles up my thoughts and sure helps.
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Postby Ricky P. » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:02 am

You compare Stanley's divorce to Gregory's is actually quite jovial. Stanley did not have an affair with his secatary. The issues are a little diffrent.
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Postby John » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:06 am

gil_tx wrote:

I saw a book at LifeWay the other day with the title: He’s God and We’re Not. I don’t remember who wrote it but the title bundles up my thoughts and sure helps.


Gil, I saw a movie once where someone was questioning a priest and he said something I've never forgotten. He said that in his many years of service as a minister, he had learned two important things 1) There is definitely a God - 2) "I'm not Him" ! !

:D :wink:
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Postby Ricky P. » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:11 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
patrick wrote:You compare Stanley's divorce to Gregory's is actually quite jovial. Stanley did not have an affair with his secatary. The issues are a little diffrent.


What bothers me about Stanley is that it has been reported that he often said that a divorced man shouldn't be allowed to serve as a pastor.

Of course, when the shoe is on the other foot one often rethinks their theology.

I've always thought it was a shame (and Biblically unsound) that divorce was held up by churches as some kind of unforgivable sin.

I wonder if Stanley has ever spoken about his views on divorce since the breakup of his marriage?


I agree with you on a certain levels. It should not be the only factor involved. There are circumstances that have to be factored in. Stanley and Gregorys divorces are under different circumstances.

Joel decided jis secatery was more important than his wife. Stanley wife ask for their divorce. We have to look at things thru lenses of grace and mercy.

Should someone who is divorced before becoming a follower of Christ be disallowed to serve in the role of pastor or deacon? I know, how I feel about that. I think we have disqualified many Godly men from some offices. What are your thoughts?
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Postby bobfrgsn » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:25 am

patrick wrote:You compare Stanley's divorce to Gregory's is actually quite jovial. Stanley did not have an affair with his secatary. The issues are a little diffrent.


Patrick would it not be more accurate to say that Stanley was not reported to have had an affair ... since as far as I have heard his wife had him under a restraining order to keep away from her ... maybe spousal abuse ... verbal or physical ... might be worse than an affair ... As far as I know neither Stanley nor his wife said why they divorced.
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Postby Ricky P. » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:41 am

Personally I agree with a lot of what is being said. We still have to deal with the "husband of one wife issue".
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Postby mlovell » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:27 am

Does it matter that Stanley told his church (after the separation from his wife) that if he were ever divorced, he'd resign immediately?
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Postby Sandy » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:52 am

Before SBC flag wavers begin criticizing the appointment of Gregory as a homiletics professor because he is twice divorced, they need to look at their own house and make sure they haven't condoned divorce among their own leadership. Stanley has never disclosed the grounds for his divorce, and if it was for a scripturally allowable reason, why would he keep it a secret and let it be held against him by his critics, one of which is his own son? Then there is the thrice-divorced Roger Moran, the highly revered attack dog who weaves webs of phony connections to level accusations and who was rewarded for his work by being selected to serve on the SBC executive board. I believe Midwestern also had a thrice-divorced trustee but of course, his conservative theological views and his willingness to vote the way Paul Pressler told him to excused his adultery.

Gregory isn't serving as a pastor, and he's not a trustee of denominational institutions. He's a professor, and a good one at that. He was once introduced at seminary chapel as "one of Southern Baptist's greatest orators," and I have no doubt that if his experiences at Dallas' First Baptist Church hadn't opened his eyes to the truth of the real ugliness of conservative, fundamentalist Baptist life and he hadn't had a "conversion" experience, divorced twice or not, the fundies would still be using him.

As to moderates not having any "models of outstanding preachers," that's a matter of opinion as to what "outstanding" preachers are. Personally, I don't think Southern Baptists have any, since I think most of their big names live off their celebrity status and not their preaching, most of which is people pleasing, compromising, mega-church entertainment and not real preaching. Few Southern Baptists could match Winfred Moore, James Denison, James Dunn or either of the Sherman brothers, Bill or Cecil. Julie Pennington-Russell, pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Waco, has turned a declining church that was on its last leg into a thriving congregation where the median age must be somewhere around 30 and is influencing an entire generation of future moderate church leaders. Brett Younger, pastor of Broadway Baptist in Ft. Worth, is a better preacher, IMHO, than any Southern Baptists I've heard. And it won't be long before Steve Wells, at South Main in Houston, will become known as one of the leading "pulpiteers" among moderate Baptists.

I'm glad Gregory is on board at Truett. He, along with the other great Southwestern profs and leaders that were run off by the fundies and wound up in Waco, will help continue stuffing Truett to capacity with Texas Baptists and others who want a real seminary education and not just fundamentalist indoctrination.
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Postby gil_TX » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:54 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
patrick wrote:You compare Stanley's divorce to Gregory's is actually quite jovial. Stanley did not have an affair with his secatary. The issues are a little diffrent.


What bothers me about Stanley is that it has been reported that he often said that a divorced man shouldn't be allowed to serve as a pastor.

Of course, when the shoe is on the other foot one often rethinks their theology.

I've always thought it was a shame (and Biblically unsound) that divorce was held up by churches as some kind of unforgivable sin.

I wonder if Stanley has ever spoken about his views on divorce since the breakup of his marriage?


In a discussion I had with some conservative believers on this subject, their take is not that the sin of divorce in unforgivable but that the consequences are not erasable (according to their interpretation of certain passages).

They make a good case but I continue to disagree. We no longer live under such bondage as many did in the time scripture was written. Divorce, gluttony, lust, homosexuality, pride, adultery… are sins that can be forgiven and forgotten by God. It would be a better place if we could just learn to forgive and forsake the sins of others and move on.
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Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:40 pm

mlovell wrote:Does it matter that Stanley told his church (after the separation from his wife) that if he were ever divorced, he'd resign immediately?


wm: Would you care to comment on twice divorced (thrice married yet?) trainer of clergy there in TX? Are we into unsubstantiated gossip with JG? Since you fail to take Patrick to task for his comments, a presumption that the matter is true?

Stanley took his shots, but is not being paid by anyone other than his congregation. Mods used to believe in local church autonomy.

Timothy, I highly recommend JG's book and I believe the title explains why he went to DFBC in spite of or overlooking Criswell sticking around.
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Postby jerryl » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:14 pm

Sandy wrote:Stanley has never disclosed the grounds for his divorce, and if it was for a scripturally allowable reason, why would he keep it a secret and let it be held against him by his critics, one of which is his own son?


I'm uncomfortable condemning Stanley because he hasn't defended himself. There could be reasons that Stanley could defend himself, but chooses not to protect others. (Probably not the case, but I'll give him that reasonable doubt.) I'll leave his divorce between him and his wife.

Joel decided jis secatery was more important than his wife.


That said, there are some behaviors that, though forgiven by God, I believe should put you out of ministry forever. This is because, in some things, the clergy must be held to a higher standard as leaders of the church and persons in some position of power and authority.


I'm of the opinion that an affair with a subordinate should probably be one of the things that puts one out of ministry forever. Even if the relationship was consensual, there are still questions of use and misuse of power.

Now should that keep someone from teaching homiletics? It would matter very much how the person viewed the affair and his current understanding of the damage it did.

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Postby Norm » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:41 pm

William: ... Stanley ... is not being paid by anyone other than his congregation ....

Moran attends SBC committee functions/meetings entirely at his own expense?
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Postby Ricky P. » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:46 pm

I have heard theologians debate the verse. No one knows for sure polgamy is what Paul was talking about. That is some peoples view. Christ taught on divorce. He wasn't that keen on it. I believe at that time marriage within the church was based on the Biblical model. So, then is it what Paul was trying to say.

Stanley offered his resignation and the church asked him to stay. Go back and look at the situation. He was ready to leave.
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